S2 EP 29 - SEL Summer Camp Week 2: Are Screens Evil or Not? Chocolate Cake, Dopamine & the Middle School Brain

💜☂️ Are Screens Evil or Not? Chocolate Cake, Dopamine & the Middle School Brain | SEL Summer Camp Week 2

Why do kids seem glued to their phones? Why do texts, group chats, likes, and social media feel so important during middle school? And are screens really harming kids—or is the answer more complicated than that?

In Week 2 of our SEL Summer Camp collaboration with Mightier, Suzanne Swain, EdS, LMSW sits down with developmental scientist Jason Kahn, PhD, co-founder of Mightier, to explore what brain science actually tells us about technology, screen time, dopamine, emotional regulation, social media, friendships, and adolescent development.

Together, we discuss:
 🧠 The middle school brain and dopamine
 📱 Why social media feels so powerful
 🍰 The “Chocolate Cake Theory” of technology
 💬 Why kids see phones differently than adults
 ❤️ The importance of belonging during adolescence
 🎮 Healthy technology habits and screen balance
 🌱 Boredom, creativity, and imagination
 🏕️ Family conversations that reduce conflict and build connection

This episode helps parents, educators, counselors, and caregivers better understand how technology interacts with the developing adolescent brain—and how to guide middle schoolers toward healthier digital habits without shame, fear, or constant power struggles.

Special SEL Summer Camp Partner: Mightier
Mightier uses biofeedback-powered video games to help kids build emotional regulation skills in real time. Middle School Mary Poppins listeners receive 15% off with code MARYPOPPINS at Mightier.com.

📥 Download this week’s Summer Camp activity guide:
 msmarypoppins.com

📧 Questions or stories?
 SuzanneSwain@gmail.com

#Parenting #MiddleSchool #ScreenTime #SocialMedia #Dopamine #AdolescentBrain #EmotionalRegulation #SEL #SocialEmotionalLearning #ExecutiveFunctioning #Neurodiversity #TweenParenting #TeenParenting #ChildDevelopment #DigitalWellness #Mightier #MiddleSchoolMaryPoppins #BrainScience #ParentingPodcast #FamilyConnection

Transcript

Welcome Back And Camp Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Well, hey y'all, welcome back. It's a beautiful day to bust a few cognitive distortions. My name is Suzanne M. Swain. I'm an educational specialist, licensed master social worker, former middle school teacher, school librarian, administrator, and yada yada yada blah blah blah. But I love middle school, and that's why I'm really excited that you're here today. Most importantly, I'm really just someone who wants to help you and your family understand the wonderfully weird world of middle school. And today we're continuing our special six-week socio-emotional learning SEL Summer Camp, our incredible collaboration between middle school Mary Poppins and Mightier. So cool. And remember, I sought them out, y'all, so they're pretty amazing. Throughout the summer, we're exploring emotional regulation, social skills, communication, technology, anxiety, anger, and all the fascinating things happening inside the adolescent brain. So joining me again today, we have Dr. Jason Kahn, developmental scientist, co-founder of Mightier, and honestly one of my favorite people to talk brain science with. We just call him Jason. Jason, welcome back to camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Well, so happy to be here, Suzanne.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Wonderful. Well,

Mightier And Emotional Regulation Games

SPEAKER_00 1:14

before we jump into today's topic, I want to remind our listeners about our partner Mightier and some of the things that they do. One of the things that I really like about them is that they took something that kids already love, video games, and then asked a really important question. What if we could use games to teach emotional regulation? Cool, right? Well, Mighty Ear combines video games with biometric feedback technology. Kids wear a sensor that measures things like heart rate and physiological arousal while they play. And as emotions rise, the game teaches them to recognize what's actually happening inside their bodies and practice calming strategies in real time. In other words, kids aren't just playing video games, they're practicing self-regulation through the game. They're learning emotional awareness. They're doing all kinds of wonderful things to help them learn to self-regulate. And honestly, I find that to be really impressive. So if you want to check them out, please go ahead and go to Mightier.com. And also there's a 15% off Mightier coupon. And if you just use the code MaryPoppins all as one word, then you can get 15% off. And folks, I understand what it's like. I was a school teacher. Money is tight, it's affordable. Yeah. And I've even had someone down the street try it, and this kiddo is absolutely shiny. So check it out, mightier.com.

Screens As Chocolate Cake

SPEAKER_00 2:35

So today we're talking about screens, phones, video games, YouTube, TikTok, Discord, group chat, streaming, social media, all that. But basically all the things that make parents want to hide the Wi-Fi wrapper. I mean, I think every family eventually ends up having the same conversation. The parent walks into the room, family member, they walk in the room, and there is your tween staring at a screen. And then you say something like, You've been on that thing all day. And then they say, No, I haven't. And then you say, Yes, you have, and so on and so forth, and you don't understand. And somehow everybody ends up upset from this. So here's the funny part. Usually both people are actually right. Families are worried because screens are really powerful and things can happen on social media and so on. And kids are frustrated because the screens are where the huge portion of their modern social life even happens. So today we're asking a very simple question. Are screens actually evil? Spoiler alert, no. But they are powerful. So I tell families technology is kind of like chocolate cake. I have my EDS degree in educational technology, so I talk to people a lot about technology and the screen time is evil kind of thing. But you know, technology is a lot like chocolate cake. Chocolate cake is not evil. Nobody accidentally becomes a terrible person because they ate birthday chocolate cake. The problem isn't the cake. The problem is when the chocolate cake becomes breakfast, lunch, dinner, dessert, and your emotional support. I mean, the same thing is true with technology. The question isn't is it good, is it bad? The question is really how much, how often, why am I using it, and what is it actually replacing in their life anyway? And if it's something like being outside, that can be a problem. So, Jason, question for you. I mean, why do we keep getting trapped in all of these all or nothing conversations about technology?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, I think you started I like the direction you were going in it because as a person as a team, and you know, both through my work and then my father, I have a I have a 13-year-old son, and his life happens on the screen, right? And so the second you start to talk about how the screen, you know, you start to if you start to regulate and try to make choices about the screen, it's the same thing as telling him where we can go, who he can hang out with, what and can and can't do. It's not just the screen, right? Like so much of his life is there. And so for a parent, it's really hard to have empathy around not just like, hey, this is you know the place where you're watching videos or playing games or doing what seems like really true, like, you know, maybe optional tasks, where from the teen perspective, this is their life. This isn't like part of their life, this isn't a slice of their life. This can really be emblematic of their entire life. That's where their social structure lives. And that's a tough dichotomy where is really right for this all or nothing conversation. Because it from the teen's perspective, it's like, hey, you're taking away my life, but from the parents' perspective, it's like, no, you're there's so much more to life than that's in this little two by four square rectangle thing or cerebral. Like, what other like let's talk about what else you can be doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Absolutely. Well, what is the research saying officially? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

I mean, the research is a it's it's in an interesting place. So we are at a place where we are starting to really get our heads around some aspects of screen time being really, really challenging for teens. Social media in particular. The research coming out there has been pretty conclusive that that's a very hard space for teens. There are good things, right? So there are times where teens can find really niche communities and connect with people that they would not otherwise be able to. But it's really hard for kids to turn it off. There are a lot of things that are built in that sort of keep them coming, coming back. It's hard to regulate, like it's hard if you're a teen to see that like a whole thing isn't about you. And so like social media absolutely amplifies that. Feeling that you already have as a teen, that everything is about you. Social media

Social Media Risks And Policy Moves

SPEAKER_01 7:10

amplifies that, and that can really lead to some really negative feelings and emotions.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Absolutely. Well, I I actually read in the news the other day that several European countries are starting to look at the idea of banning kids under the age of 16 from social media.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, that's actually happening here as well. So there are certain states and localities. I know Massachusetts is exploring this of they're calling it they're calling it a social media band, but they're really looking to ban certain technologies underneath social media that are really designed to like trigger really anyone's brains, but especially young adults, teens, young adults' brains into keeping coming back.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Well, that's good that you know we're looking at the responsibility factor and what we need to provide for our kids to protect them. So I I you know I'm curious to hear more as this develops, actually. So we shall see. But I I do see that you know social media to me as well feels like the one thing that really needs to be corralled because of so much cyberbullying. I saw so many eighth graders go through cyberbullying and things like that. And it's it's absolutely devastating. So we want to protect our kids from things like that, of course. And hopefully, you know, we'll we'll just explore it all and we'll see what happens. But okay, y'all, let's talk about dopamine for a second, because that that's a big trigger here. So last week we called dopamine the treasure hunter of the brain. Well, today I want to go a little deeper than that. Most people think dopamine is released when we get a reward. Well, that's not entirely true. One of the biggest dopamine spikes actually happens when we think a reward is coming. I mean, think about Steve. If he thinks that he's gonna get a pup cup, boy, oh boy, he's all excited about it. It's not when he gets the pup cup, it's the anticipation, right? So the brain asks, maybe somebody texted, maybe somebody will like my post, or oh gosh, somebody replied, and maybe somebody invited me somewhere, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. And the brain loves maybes. So a little fun fact though, scientists actually discovered that unpredictable awards create stronger dopamine responses than predictable ones. So that's why slot machines kind of work, and unfortunately, it's also why notifications work on your phone. So if every time you opened up your refrigerator, there was a random chance of finding tacos, you know, puppies, chocolate cake, concert tickets, or $20 bills, you'd probably be checking your refrigerator like every other minute, right? I mean, don't you wish? Well, Jason, though, I mean, why are unpredictable rewards so powerful for the human brain?

SPEAKER_01 9:43

It's like you know, it's actually like it's quite the trick that our brains have built where you know you get this anticipation, you get this anticipation, you get this anticipation, and it's really like a very, very basic finding of like behavioral science that you know brains are really, really like having something good happen to them. And so they will anticipate. They will anticipate, they will anticipate, they will anticipate. And this honestly isn't just a human brain phenomenon, although it definitely gets taken advantage of with human brains. Um and so, you know, I mean, anyone who has had the experience of training a dog has actually played around with this circuit. So you teach a dog to sit, you give them a reward every single time, but eventually you start scaffolding that, right? Like the dog doesn't know if they're gonna get the reward, but they sit because they're anticipating, they're really looking forward to it. Right. And like you said, you can play with that, right? So this is one of the things that I talk about with with my kids and other parents as well, is that you know, there are, you know, when you talk about things like my dear, like we have a lot of game designers looking trying to build things that benefit kids, but you go off into other games, a lot of mainstream games. And the way these games make money is by getting people to buy, you know, buy something, and you don't even necessarily know what's going to be in that box when you buy it. Right. Um and so you know, what I'm telling kids is like whenever they are thinking about buying something online or hitting that next click, they are facing off against an army of PhD economists and uh one 12-year-old versus a few PhDs and all the data of all the 12-year-olds, like it's not a situation where they are necessarily set up for success, right? Like it's just not a fair fight. And so, you know, the way that I have my kids short circuit that is really stop and think, really implement a delay of like, hey, if I were to do this thing, would I be happier? If I were to wait five minutes and really reappraise, would I still be happier? You know, you see it as an parent, like when your kid wants the uh currency in Minecraft or Roblox or something like that. And you know, yeah, sometimes the answer is yeah, that actually is the thing that will make them happy, and that is currency, but you know, having them institute that break of like, hey, like if I get out of this moment, really

Dopamine And Unpredictable Rewards

SPEAKER_01 12:25

can help like really can short circuit that anticipation and help them get to a place where they can make a little bit of a better decision.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Absolutely, absolutely. And middle school brains are really vulnerable to this, folks. I mean, I you know, I know that I'm guilty of going on those certain you can get things really cheap from another country kind of things, and all the sounds and the little dings and everything make you feel pleasure, you know, especially the little noises. And I find that I, you know, when I I'm not even realizing it, things are in my shopping cart. So, folks, this is an adult thing also. But imagine what it must be like for a middle schooler to have to go into this world. So it can be a lot of pressure. So, but here's something I think that adults do miss from time to time. See, when adults see a phone, they see technology. But when kids see a phone, they see people. Because we thought of picking up the telephone and dialing a number. I remember when I used to remember lots of phone numbers, and I would reach my friend, you know, Debbie, and we'd chat, and that would be great. So a cell phone is mostly a phone plus technology, but to kids, it's technology plus a phone. So when I was growing up, there was a campfire, we had like a fire pit outside. And today the campfire often lives online, though. It's the group chat and the gaming servers and all of that, the shared memes and discord and the ongoing conversations that they're having. And middle schoolers are biologically wired to care deeply about belonging. And the brain processes social rejection similarly to physical pain. So being left out can actually activate some of the same alarm systems involved in a physical injury. So think about that. So when a middle schooler says, nobody responded to my text, adults hear, okay, it's a text, so what? Like, no big deal, NBD. The adolescent brain, though, is hearing, what does that mean I don't belong? You know, what's wrong with me? Have I done something? And then all that hyper concern comes in. So, Jason, I mean, why is belonging so powerful during adolescence, more so than anytime else?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Well, it's one of the it's one of the functional jobs of adolescents is really to help us figure out our time and our place in society and among our peers. It's really the first time that our brains really, really start to appreciate not just that other people exist, but they could have thoughts, they have feelings, they could be thinking about us. And you know, I think one of the things that I often ask adults to sort of frame this and get their head around it is think back. I mean, most adults can still name their middle school friends. Sure. And that was I mean, decades ago. Right, right. And like, you know, it's just the way that this space, when our brain is very first figuring this out, like these leave very deep imprints on our brain. And like you said, like it becomes you know, that need for belonging is not just a not just, I mean, it's a physical sensation. Our our brain doesn't our brain has all of the emotions associated with it, but like no break to put on any social feeling, good or bad. And so it just becomes such a deep part of us.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

And it's really, I mean, it is, I mean, that is part of why we have adolescence, right? Like we are, we do have to figure out our place in the world, and that is that's that's one of the things that is one of the key jobs of kids at that time of their life.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Right. I mean, their identities are developing. And I remember my eighth graders used to say that around seventh and eighth grade, you start hearing that people are multifaceted. And when a kid said that, I was like, Way to go, five dollar. And but yeah, he, you know, they were like, you know, you start to realize your friends have lots of interests and interesting, you know, things that they like to study in all this. So one kid even said that his friends became a kaleidoscope during this age. And with that identity formation, it's good for them to have these close-knit relationships where you can explore that. It's just that they're doing it in a different format than what we're you, you know, we're really used to. And honestly, I don't want to go back to eighth-grade dances, to be honest. So, you know, there you go. So maybe this is a new way of making things work and work effectively for them. So it's something to think about. And I think it requires a bit of grace, you know, for the kids themselves. And to just understand that perhaps maybe they are going through a struggle. So I think a good conversation about how they feel when they don't get a text or how they feel if someone didn't respond with enough likes. And to ask them what does that actually make them feel inside and describe the feeling in their body when that occurs. Jason, do you agree?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I do, and really like, yeah, like having a child check in with how they are, how their experience on the screen is affecting them, is really like, especially for parents who are struggling to set balance and guidelines of like really a nice first step to figuring out, like, okay, like helping a child see that maybe they're they're having positive times and they're getting some positive needs out of it. But there might be other needs in their life that aren't best addressed through screen time.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, obviously, we know that having a balanced lifestyle is the way to go. So, you know, we can't be totally reliant on one thing. And that's essential. So, and I know that a lot of families work really hard to do that with the screen time battle. So it's something that is worth a discussion. So please ask your children how do they feel inside? What does the body feel? What are what does the body feel if you don't get a text? What does the body feel if you do? I mean, students' attention is kind of like little puppies, you know. Train it, helpful, loyal, focused, ignore it, and it will chase absolutely every squirrel in the neighborhood. No questions asked. And technology is kind of like 5,000 little squirrels in a way. I mean, watch this, check this, click this, squirrel, look here, read this, check this out, respond to this. The developing brain is constantly being invited somewhere else. And that can be really frustrating. Research has found that simply seeing your phone nearby can reduce attention and working memory. Not using it, just looking at

When Phones Mean Belonging

SPEAKER_00 18:55

your phone. So if you've ever walked into a room and forgotten why you're even there, I do that a lot, the phone might deserve at least part of the blame. Now, here's something nobody really is talking about. What about boredom? You know, Ennui was a character in Inside Out. So boredom is a real thing. And when I was growing up and got bored, I basically had like three choices. Jason, I wonder if you're on the same boat here. You can pretty much go outside, build something out of something free, or annoy my brother, which I was pretty much, you know, a pro at. So, but boredom really wasn't my enemy. Boredom activates systems involved in creativity, imagination, reflection, and problem solving. Kind of like when you give a younger kid a big box that you may get like a refrigerator in and crayons, and they can sit in there all day and color and create spaceships and who knows what. Well, we need to engage that in our middle schoolers as well, that same type of on-site creativity challenges. Some researchers even call boredom the birthplace of creativity. So maybe from being bored is how you get creative. Hmm, food for thought. So, Jason, what happens when our brains rarely get the downtime it needs?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, I think that the you're right, that we really take a lot, and that there is an emerging field that being bored and having downtime is a highly valuable time for us to consolidate what we know, to be creative, to be playful. And, you know, I don't think that I am able to quite talk about like what happens to the non-bored brain, but I do think that there is a quite the consensus emerging that some amount of boredom is a good thing. And it is hard in this day and age to be bored. Like there is just always something to do, always someone to talk to, always something to look at. And that might not be the, you know, that might not be the best for kids in their developmental life.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, we talked about boredom a lot in with my eighth grade class, because that was the thing they're like, we're bored, we're bored in other classes or at home. And we talked about that. And I said, well, that's what makes you a go-getter. Because when you sit there in the quiet, and then all of a sudden you have this idea, it makes you want to go do it. So sometimes you need to quiet so you can hear your thoughts properly. So I think it's a skill to some degree now. Before you're just sort of, you know, in the 80s, it's like, don't come home until the lights turn off on there or the street lights come on and so on. But a modern kid now doesn't really have a lot of opportunities to be bored. So perhaps something we can do as a family is to help them be in that space and to see how they do. So, I mean, I often tell kids that their brains basically have batteries. So, what charges your battery? Sleep, friends, laughter, nature, movement, creativity. But what's a drain? Stress, definitely conflict, anxiety. Poor sleep is the biggest thing, I think. And constant stimulation. You should really ask every family member what charges their battery and have a discussion about this over dinner or something. And what also drains your battery? Because just by knowing these things, you can help to understand people's point of view. So I'm gonna challenge you and do a kind of a chocolate cake challenge. So for this week, ask was technology dessert or a side dish or sometimes the entire meal? No guilt, no shame, no, you know, we're just talking awareness here. But having that discussion and opening up that line of communication can really breed some insight into your family. And when you understand people better, it's a lot harder to get upset with them. So, Jason, if you could help every parent understand one thing about technology in the adolescent brain, what would you pick?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

I it's it's it's a hard one. Yeah. But I think the thing to keep in mind is technology is always answering a need. Like when somebody picks it up, it is answering a need. Whether it is some whether someone's gonna be able to name it or not, I don't know. So whether it's that expectation of a reward, that's a type of need. Whether it is social connection, that's a need. The more that somebody can understand those needs, the more in control they're gonna be. So, you know, with my dear, we've are aiming to build a very educational, you know, beneficial, healthy need, and a build emotional regulation skill and make sure that everybody's screen time within my Dear is purposeful and beneficial. Um But I really do think that all screen time can hit that purposeful and beneficial, right? Like spending time chatting with your friends is purposeful, if you name it, and you go do it.

Attention Boredom And Brain Batteries

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Spending time playing a game is purposeful if you know that you're going there to have some fun and maybe like engage with that for a few minutes. One of my colleagues has this great idea of a screen time diet, right? And that means that just screens are something that exists within everybody's life. We can't make them go away. And like you said, like if they become everything, then we're not having much of a you know, there's not much purpose or meaning to that diet. But if we know what we're doing and why, and we can have these conversations, I think parents will find that like some of these conversations at least can become a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Absolutely. Well, and one thing that I had one of my eighth graders do one time because she was telling me, she's like, I'm always on social media, I'm always on my phone, and she wanted to change. And I said, Well, just write down every time you feel an urge to pick up your phone and just note the time and at the end of the day, take a look at it and do a little self-reflection. Well, she did this for a few days and she's like, Oh my gosh, Miss Swain, I had no idea. And that helped her to self-regulate. So I think it's fantastic. And honestly, the game at Mighty Year, I have I've gotten really into it, but I like the fact that you are very well aware within the video game that you need to start calming down. And when you take on that ability to self-regulate, it can be an extremely beneficial thing, especially doing something that you're already having fun doing. I really enjoyed the video game because it reminded me of back in the day there was a game called uh I had Sega and it was called Govelius, and it reminded me of that. So it had a nostalgia to it, which can also be extremely powerful and made me feel safe. So, you know, no matter what your age, screen time can be a really beneficial thing if used in a balanced way. Technology is not evil. Middle schoolers are so not broken, folks. They're really not. All families don't need perfection. What we need is just awareness because powerful tools require skill. The goal isn't raising children who fear technology or adults who really fear technology. The goal is raising children who know how to use it wisely and safely. And speaking of using technology wisely, that's why I'm excited about why we're getting together with Mighty Ear. Might Ear helps children build emotional regulation skills through that biometric feedback,

Practical Boundaries And Closing

SPEAKER_00 26:05

the armband and video gameplay. And then it helps kids learn how to recognize what's happening inside their body and see it in real time and practice calming strategies right there. So if you'd like to learn more about what Mighty Ear can do, it's affordable for families, it's totally accessible. Use my coupon code MaryPoppins for a 15% off your subscription. And do not forget to head over to Ms.MaryPoppins.com. This week we're gonna have some downloads about our topic and summer camp activities and all kinds of family discussion guides. And if you have any questions, ideas, or stories you want to share, feel free to email me directly at suzanswain at gmail.com and I'd love to hear from you. Until next week, folks, always stop, regulate, and listen, and for sure, stay clever, little foxes. Take it easy, and we'll see you next week for week number three.